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Post by orangedw on Apr 11, 2024 10:15:30 GMT -5
I still hold high hopes for JJ. I think he has the skill set and athletic ability to be very good, and as far as I know seems to be a good kid who will put the work in. Thinking of two guards who played at a high level on both ends of the floor as sophomores, I’ve got Waiters and Battle. Cant really think of more at the moment. This is a big year for him for sure though, we really need him to play a lot better. Yeah I guess we shouldn’t be writing off guys who are (in theory) halfway done with their college career Theoretically JJ might be the “sweet spot” type of player we need: not good enough to go pro early, already transferred so probably isn’t going to do that again(though I guess many do, he’s a hometown kid too though), and has the skillset to potentially be a very good college player. I think (hope) we’ll be happy we have him the next two years. Bell seems to be more of a wildcard personality wise, and I’m not sure has the upside to be more than just a really good shooter, so I’m not quite as confident there….hopefully he at least becomes an adequate defender/rebounder. Again, he’s a guy who never would’ve seen the floor here until his junior or senior year, in our glory days. It’s possible he’ll make a leap.
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djcon57
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Post by djcon57 on Apr 11, 2024 10:32:37 GMT -5
My reaction is strictly due to his PG skills and poor defensive metrics. We know JJ and Chris are bad and we’ve brought in 3 guys with similar poor metrics and expect the D to even be passable? Seems like a leap of faith to me Red’s a defensive-minded coach. I think he’s assembled a roster that will be above-average on offense. His job will be to teach them how to defend. The team should be better next year, perhaps a lot better. We needed a real center. We got one. We needed a less-selfish, better shooting PG. We’re getting one. We needed a backup forward. We’re getting one. We needed to replace G-Mac, preferably with someone more experienced. Done. If Red can win 20 games with guys playing out of position or who barely listen to him, imagine what he can do with a more complete roster that’s bought in. Not going to argue with that take at all. Everything you said is valid. There were glimpses when I thought Bell was getting better on D last year, so I get the general optimism. But I'm also not going to be surprised and outraged if our defense is a trainwreck next year based on the general metrics and basic D stats of the players we're returning, the guys we're getting, and loss of Brown. I'm 1000% rooting for Red and I'm thrilled he tossed the riff raff out of the door. So even though my general tone sounds negative, it shouldn't be taken that way. I just REALLY wanted a big time PG. Hopefully Leffew will prove me wrong. (btw, really enjoy this level of discourse here. I don't understand why we can't just agree/disagree without the shots at fandom or whatever.)
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Post by hofceluck on Apr 11, 2024 10:37:46 GMT -5
Red’s a defensive-minded coach. I think he’s assembled a roster that will be above-average on offense. His job will be to teach them how to defend. The team should be better next year, perhaps a lot better. We needed a real center. We got one. We needed a less-selfish, better shooting PG. We’re getting one. We needed a backup forward. We’re getting one. We needed to replace G-Mac, preferably with someone more experienced. Done. If Red can win 20 games with guys playing out of position or who barely listen to him, imagine what he can do with a more complete roster that’s bought in. Not going to argue with that take at all. Everything you said is valid. There were glimpses when I thought Bell was getting better on D last year, so I get the general optimism. But I'm also not going to be surprised and outraged if our defense is a trainwreck next year based on the general metrics and basic D stats of the players we're returning, the guys we're getting, and loss of Brown. I'm 1000% rooting for Red and I'm thrilled he tossed the riff raff out of the door. So even though my general tone sounds negative, it shouldn't be taken that way. I just REALLY wanted a big time PG. Hopefully Leffew will prove me wrong. (btw, really enjoy this level of discourse here. I don't understand why we can't just agree/disagree without the shots at fandom or whatever.) Or the gaslighting, or straw men, or just deleting things you don’t like etc etc etc.
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djcon57
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Post by djcon57 on Apr 11, 2024 10:40:38 GMT -5
Yeah I guess we shouldn’t be writing off guys who are (in theory) halfway done with their college career Theoretically JJ might be the “sweet spot” type of player we need: not good enough to go pro early, already transferred so probably isn’t going to do that again(though I guess many do, he’s a hometown kid too though), and has the skillset to potentially be a very good college player. I think (hope) we’ll be happy we have him the next two years. Bell seems to be more of a wildcard personality wise, and I’m not sure has the upside to be more than just a really good shooter, so I’m not quite as confident there….hopefully he at least becomes an adequate defender/rebounder. Again, he’s a guy who never would’ve seen the floor here until his junior or senior year, in our glory days. It’s possible he’ll make a leap. I think the main wildcard as you put it on Bell is I do wonder how much mopey Mintz and Benny's attitudes and how they played rubbed off on him. He got into the ref complainer mold in a section of the season and Red would get outwardly agitated at him. Hoping now that the bad attitudes are gone, Bell could get more into a leader role on this team
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Post by cusefan0307 on Apr 11, 2024 11:09:59 GMT -5
JJ’s offense isn’t the problem. He got better as the season went on. His defense is the problem. He was a worse defender than Joe Girard. I get he had a shoulder issue but he was awful on defense. He was so bad Red in the ACCT game put Cuffe in because he had no choice. Our problem is the players we are playing aren’t good defensively. If we are playing Bell and Starling we need an actual good defensive guard and defensive wing. Nevermind their lack of rebounding. I still hold high hopes for JJ. I think he has the skill set and athletic ability to be very good, and as far as I know seems to be a good kid who will put the work in. Thinking of two guards who played at a high level on both ends of the floor as sophomores, I’ve got Waiters and Battle. Cant really think of more at the moment. This is a big year for him for sure though, we really need him to play a lot better. There’s a lot of guys that were better as sophomores than JJ. He had one of the lowest PER’s for any starting guard here ever. Only Kaleb Joseph and Frank Howard were similar. Flynn. Triche. Scoop. Cooney. Gmac. Those are some that were clearly better than JJ at this stage in the past 20 years. Heck even Joe was better at this stage than JJ. I still feel like a lot of fans are still using recruiting ranking to judge JJ. He’s been a below average starter to this point by pretty much all standards. I don’t think it’s outrageous to say the season probably rests on how much he and Bell perform.
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Post by hofceluck on Apr 11, 2024 11:29:38 GMT -5
JJ named ACC POY book it
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Post by JazzNC on Apr 11, 2024 13:32:55 GMT -5
I call BS on this one. We hired his fricking coach. I thought this kid was drama free. No way he’s not gonna be Orange.
lol… maybe he was asked to do this… so the masses actually believe we won his services.
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Post by mikesu02 on Apr 11, 2024 13:38:08 GMT -5
I still hold high hopes for JJ. I think he has the skill set and athletic ability to be very good, and as far as I know seems to be a good kid who will put the work in. Thinking of two guards who played at a high level on both ends of the floor as sophomores, I’ve got Waiters and Battle. Cant really think of more at the moment. This is a big year for him for sure though, we really need him to play a lot better. There’s a lot of guys that were better as sophomores than JJ. He had one of the lowest PER’s for any starting guard here ever. Only Kaleb Joseph and Frank Howard were similar. Flynn. Triche. Scoop. Cooney. Gmac. Those are some that were clearly better than JJ at this stage in the past 20 years. Heck even Joe was better at this stage than JJ. I still feel like a lot of fans are still using recruiting ranking to judge JJ. He’s been a below average starter to this point by pretty much all standards. I don’t think it’s outrageous to say the season probably rests on how much he and Bell perform.
Yeah, my cautious outlook is that once you start banking on *everything* to break your way, you are into magical thinking land (and I'm as guilty of this as anyone in the past).
JJ is a good example. Maybe he gets better. But even getting better makes him an ok starter, it does not make him a game changer.
Bell I think has the actual biggest upside in terms of big leap, but even that is a little unfair because I think he'll get better at rebounding and defense (to be adequate), but I don't think he's all of a sudden going to be dribbling like Kyrie. I do think this team will help him be better with the construction.
Donnie is a frosh and Leffew and Lapkin have positives, but we're not talking players without flaws.
Point being, my expectations based on who we have and who we are likely getting are pretty middle of the road. Losing Maliq was big. And even though I thought Judah caused lots of issues (I don't think anyone would doubt my POV on him), he still had raw talent.
So I kinda see next year having similar results as this year, but at least it will seemingly be a more enjoyable team vs dealing with the nonsense that went on.
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djcon57
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Post by djcon57 on Apr 11, 2024 13:41:09 GMT -5
So I kinda see next year having similar results as this year, but at least it will seemingly be a more enjoyable team vs dealing with the nonsense that went on.
Agreed...and I think the issue I'm having to come to grips with is that I was hoping that was going to happen in Year 1, not hoping for the best in year 2. To clarify, I was happy with general style of play, just couldnt stand watching judah and the ref complainers.
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Post by orangedw on Apr 11, 2024 17:51:41 GMT -5
I call BS on this one. We hired his fricking coach. I thought this kid was drama free. No way he’s not gonna be Orange. lol… maybe he was asked to do this… so the masses actually believe we won his services. Dasher posted about how he’s “not completely into us yet” or something. So who knows? In my life as a fan, if I see a list like that I’m assuming he’s Orange unless he’s from Philly….and even then he still might be Orange? Now? I wouldn’t be surprised at all if we lose a recruiting battle against the likes of South Carolina, Georgia, or Xavier.
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Post by JazzNC on Apr 11, 2024 18:01:37 GMT -5
I call BS on this one. We hired his fricking coach. I thought this kid was drama free. No way he’s not gonna be Orange. lol… maybe he was asked to do this… so the masses actually believe we won his services. Dasher posted about how he’s “not completely into us yet” or something. So who knows? In my life as a fan, if I see a list like that I’m assuming he’s Orange unless he’s from Philly….and even then he still might be Orange? Now? I wouldn’t be surprised at all if we lose a recruiting battle against the likes of South Carolina, Georgia, or Xavier. I will never believe that we hired Lefews coach at MSM independent of a Lefew signing. This is theatrics to control the narrative. If Lefew has a final six after the Englehardt hire it doesn’t reek of desperation that in order to get him on board it was a package deal. It also allows SU to brag about how many other teams we beat out. I’m not buying it.
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Post by hofceluck on Apr 11, 2024 18:12:00 GMT -5
He’s a grown man FFS. Aren’t we beyond this?
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Post by sbucketball on Apr 12, 2024 8:54:57 GMT -5
JazzNC, that's a really good point. If we feel like we have to chase him, the fans will want him. I bet you see fans generally move towards wanting him over the next week. It's literally like dating lol. Maybe the NCAA should set up a tinder-type app where coaches and players can swipe right.
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Post by upstatesm on Apr 12, 2024 9:47:42 GMT -5
Leffew going someplace else after we hired his head coach would be objectively pretty funny
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Post by JazzNC on Apr 12, 2024 12:27:37 GMT -5
Leffew going someplace else after we hired his head coach would be objectively pretty funny Even Dean suggested that it would be a really bad look for Red if Leffew doesn’t come after hiring the MSM coach.
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