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Post by JazzNC on Apr 13, 2020 16:05:56 GMT -5
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Post by deano on Apr 13, 2020 19:12:00 GMT -5
Let him have it Jazz. Another fool wearing orange colored glasses
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Post by sobecuse on Apr 13, 2020 22:04:40 GMT -5
That guy is a total homer. I fired back a little bit on Twitter with him. What’s amazing is that most of these guys don’t realize that it’s an OUTLIER and an ABERRATION to make the S16 and the Final 4. Those aren’t the recipes to success. A play in game and an 8-seed (very fortunate to get that seed too). That’s becoming the norm in terms of seeding or it’s an NIT as the losses keep piling up. It’s not good. Would be nice to be ranked too for a change and an actual contender in March.
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Post by cusefan2016 on Apr 14, 2020 9:10:37 GMT -5
I tend to be more pro JB on this board than most, and even I have issues with that article.
I think there are two ways to view it, process and results. The 2016 or 2018 seasons are perfect examples. Results show a final 4 and a sweet 16. Teams that were out talented and didn't have the physical horses to win a title or even be lock NCAA teams, but got hot at the right time and have a Hall of fame coach who can out coach (my opinion) most opponents he is going to see in a win or go home format.
On the contrary you have many of the seasons from the late 2000s to early 2010s. Process was there in terms of nationally ranked teams, talent all over the floor, top 4 seeds, and teams that can cut down the net. However the result in final 4's or titles is not what we want (only 1) in that time.
I understand the premise of the article, but where he is flawed is that if you are a constantly an 8 seed or worse those runs are aberrations and even when they come you really do not even have a chance to win a title. If we have more seasons like 2015-2020 the chances we make another deep run are SLIM, and when the results are no longer there articles like that have no standing because you are referencing NCAA runs from 10 another decade.
I firmly believe JB can still coach an elite team, but he needs to improve the talent level he brings in order to do so.
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Post by sobecuse on Apr 14, 2020 20:38:18 GMT -5
What JB does well is that he knows what to do to win especially with the flawed teams. The Tourney setting helps and the draw is huge hoping we face teams who are inept in facing Zone. I don’t even think it’s really us getting hot at the right time though you have the Malachi situation as an individual getting hot. But the Zone factor cannot be overstated. How the teams attack it. If we play defense well then we usually do JUST enough on offense to squeak by. I was at the Dayton and Detroit games. Somehow MSU played and Izzo coached the worst games of their careers and nearly won. TCU and Dixon did everything right they just missed everything brick after brick. They were in the game! MSU game the offense especially the last four minutes was pass back and forth Frank-Tyus. Oshae then gets a pass and gets to dribble a little bit. Does nothing and wastes time. Back to Tyus. Then Tyus or Oshae tries to shoot or drive as the shot clock runs down. Rinse and repeat. No movement. JB is NEVER going to outscheme somebody on offense but he did what it takes to win. Meaning play good D, hope the team is inept on offense, and stall the F out of the game on offense. It worked! Still, MSU shot like 33% for the game and 26% from three and nearly won lol! MSU beats SU 8 or 9/10 normally. That loaded Gonzaga team before UVA beats us 8/10 times. Same with UVA. Perspective. We aren’t on the level of those programs anymore.
JB needs elite talent. He’ll put them in the right places to win and be successful. Again, he won’t outscheme anybody which is why we will struggle again and until better talent comes. He’s just not going to demand to out-screen a team, or cut like crazy off the ball, or out-execute. He’s going to let JG and BB just launch freely because that’s the best chance to win. Same with Elijah who was able to beat most defenders. Without much inside game (as usual) it’s green lights to launch and take tough shots. Is this good offense? Not really and I don’t care what the KenPom numbers are. But it works sometimes and is the best chance to win. Are we a good team? Also, not really.
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Post by cusefan2016 on Apr 15, 2020 8:57:19 GMT -5
Not sure it is fair to say a HOF coach with 1000 plus wins cant "out-scheme" anyone. And that if he either needs elite talent to win or just has to play good D and hope his team can squeak bye.
Like saying Roy Williams cant coach and just relies on elite talent to play at a frantic pace and outscore opponents.
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Post by sobecuse on Apr 15, 2020 11:49:41 GMT -5
Not sure it is fair to say a HOF coach with 1000 plus wins cant "out-scheme" anyone. And that if he either needs elite talent to win or just has to play good D and hope his team can squeak bye. Like saying Roy Williams cant coach and just relies on elite talent to play at a frantic pace and outscore opponents. We can agree to disagree. I think I gave plenty of fair examples and evidence of offensive woes combined with strategy. The longevity is there of course with JB and the wins. Like it or not that has been the primary strategy for the most part since 2016. Stall the F out of the game and play good D. Last season it was as I indicated. Launch freely and take contested shots. Because they can do that and are pretty good at it. It happened to be the best chance to win because they were so flawed elsewhere. A good team? No. Just watching the 2013 team for instance. Lots of standing around offense. Lack of creativity in sets. Not a lot of off ball cutting. Drive and plow into a help defender a lot. My point is on offense. JB isn’t going to outscheme anybody on offense. That is common knowledge from just about any analyst and if you watch plays being run and the EXECUTION of said plays. Often he has had enough talent to get by without a lot of structure. Again, nothing new here. I think I’m being quite objective, frankly. I see too many teams across the country, even mid majors, who are able to generate more open looks for their guys and actual quality shots than us. Often with even lesser recruits. This part isn’t even hyperbole. The verbal diarrhea of “we got plenty of good looks” after losses...baloney. File that into the ‘JB says things’ folder. Roy is an excellent offensive coach and they do a LOT more than transition and crash boards. They move the ball well, give up shots for better shots, play cohesive ball, and play with passion and purpose. I’m sure this past season was an aberration.
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Post by JazzNC on Apr 15, 2020 13:47:09 GMT -5
Not sure it is fair to say a HOF coach with 1000 plus wins cant "out-scheme" anyone. And that if he either needs elite talent to win or just has to play good D and hope his team can squeak bye. Like saying Roy Williams cant coach and just relies on elite talent to play at a frantic pace and outscore opponents. I don’t think Sobe is implying JB can’t coach. He’s a defensive mastermind. His weakness is his offensive coaching ability. If this was the NFL he’d be a defensive coordinator. He sure as heck wouldn’t be an offensive coordinator. JB is one of the best defensive coaches in the history of the game. Lately, however, the talent on the roster has been less, so our defense is not the strength that it used to be. The games we won last year, we won because we shot the ball well from the perimeter. In many of those games the opposing team also shot below their average. That formula will definitely win us some games and keep us at bubble level, and capable of pulling off the occasional upset. It’s not going to get us back to our glory days. JB’s biggest weakness is recruiting, and the absence of Hopkins has never been felt more. Unless we get better talent the mediocrity will continue.
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Post by sobecuse on Apr 15, 2020 14:16:35 GMT -5
I’ll chime in once more and that’s it. Mostly because it’s Captain Obvious talk and I tend to repeat myself more than I should. Dementia probably.
Back to 2013. We scored in the 40’S TWICE in the last three weeks of the season. 39 once! A BUNCH of games in the 50s. Now, none of this on Jim Boeheim and the construction of the offense?! Please. We barely did ANYTHING in the halfcourt against Marquette, Indiana, and Cal in that Tourney. Turnovers galore and bricks from opponents, good D, and transition baskets. Watch those games over again (you can on YouTube) and the second halves. Be honest. You think SU wins if there are 5 more minutes left in those games? Maybe. If you are in the camp of, “Hey, a win is a win.“ Fine. But, the offense was pretty bad. Not debateable, really. We could not score anymore and more/less held on to big leads. Those possessions most of the game were horrendous, especially in the 2H. Stagnant, no movement, etc. I have seen enough of this over the years to determine without a reason of a doubt that these are systemic issues. There were actually good players on that team, too. The Ennis team second half of the season. Just collapsed. We couldn’t draw up better looks for Cooney or others? Stay safe everybody.
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Post by ckdexterhaven on Apr 15, 2020 15:27:25 GMT -5
I really hate simple-minded people. Not sure if it's my age, or the frequency with which one encounters them... because... Internet. But, come on.
Calling it a matter of "recent blips" is a ridiculous characterization of a significant Trend. And it ignores that the HoF coach doesn't have 5 years to turn it around, after which we can expect to return to greatness/prominence with him at the helm. We are IN the downturn of an irrelevance curve.
"Okay, fine. But, let’s face it, if Ballard made Syracuse his collegiate destination, then I guarantee an assortment of ‘Cuse fans would complain that the Orange got a commitment from an unrated prospect, rather than a top-25 star or a McDonald’s All-American."
Well, duh. Again—it's the internet. It's PEOPLE. There aren't very many topics of conversation involving passionate audience where there aren't voices on more than one side of a discussion. At least not among people who are capable of discerning and nuanced thought. Regarding that specific example, yeah, you would expect SOME of our fans to be happy we got him, some to be merely RELIEVED we got someone, and some unhappy that we were 'trawling and begging' for an unheralded project. Because the truth of the situation involves ALL THREE perspectives.
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Post by cusefan2016 on Apr 16, 2020 8:22:26 GMT -5
I can certainly agree and get behind he is a defense oriented coach. That is where his strengths are.
I think what I was pointing out is that he is a good "in game coach" and I would take him there more than others.
We can always agree to disagree. I just like this board because it is fun to talk cuse hoop with people who are has invested (insane?) as I am.
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Post by sobecuse on Apr 16, 2020 8:31:20 GMT -5
I can certainly agree and get behind he is a defense oriented coach. That is where his strengths are. I think what I was pointing out is that he is a good "in game coach" and I would take him there more than others. We can always agree to disagree. I just like this board because it is fun to talk cuse hoop with people who are has invested (insane?) as I am. He is a good in game coach. No question. It’s one of his strengths for the most part. I probably did a poor job illustrating that but that’s what I meant mostly with he does what it takes to win. I think the strategy was right with those Frank and Pascal teams. Pretty much stall on offense and play good D. Same with last year. Different style but also correct. But, they have had teams with good players like 2013 and the Cooney/Ennis squad who just had too much trouble scoring and not a lot being done structurally to help them out on that side of the ball. The problem is that what he is doing is not really working out well anymore. Now it’s probably mostly a recruiting problem like you mention but teams are doing more with even less. I think it all goes back to our system that handicaps us to a certain extent. I am now fully convinced that Bennett and Few could win more games with our players. What Bennett did to turn it around was remarkable with that group of players. He would‘ve probably won another ACC Tourney Title if life didn’t shut down.
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Post by cusefan2016 on Apr 16, 2020 10:43:48 GMT -5
Probably. But Bennett and Few can probably do more with just about every team as well.
Duke and Kentucky have not been to a final 4 since 2015, we can make the same Bennett and Few argument with them. Obviously in their cases it is meeting expectations with talent, not doing more with less.
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Post by ckdexterhaven on Apr 16, 2020 13:10:07 GMT -5
My Hot Take is that JB is only a good in-game coach for 2/3rds of the game. The first third it too often seems like we hadn't prepared for the opponent. So that any adjustments he makes 'in-game' seem just that much more significant. Playing zone seems to make it reasonable that we let stuff happen to us and then decide who's hot and who's going to torch us. And sometimes that's either too late or just not enough.
We won a lot of games over the course of 'history' because we had a conference recruiting advantage. Essentially, it was us, UConn, or Georgetown with the best players, and so we won a lot of games because we should have. Now that we don't have that advantage, we're not winning so many games.
Adjustments make a coach look smart. Preparation is invisible.
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Post by sobecuse on Apr 16, 2020 16:12:00 GMT -5
Probably. But Bennett and Few can probably do more with just about every team as well. Duke and Kentucky have not been to a final 4 since 2015, we can make the same Bennett and Few argument with them. Obviously in their cases it is meeting expectations with talent, not doing more with less. Who knows. Bennett was certainly doing more with less this past season. Those powers like UK/Duke are steady. Always a threat. Almost always making good runs and in competitive tourney games. Always deserving of the high seed due to the body of work they accomplish. I like most logical fans realize Kentucky probably beats that WVU team who zoned them all game (in Syracuse?) 8 times out of 10 same as MSU beats us 8/10 two years ago. I don’t even really care that much about deep runs. I just want to be a protected seed and actually feel like we belong in March. That feeling has been long gone for awhile now and I doubt Boeheim can get it back. There are just too many recruiting and systemic flaws. Clear as day to me now. I picked Dayton to beat that Ennis team and Baylor to beat us even before Frank was ruled out. It is what it is.
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